Paul

Anyone wanting to read the definitive history of bootlegs should pick up the book 'The Great White Wonders' by Clinton Heylin (June '94). It is quite fascinating. Here, as part of the Prologue of the book is the authors take on the right vs. wrong arguments of bootlegging:

dking

I agree with most of what you've brought up here, Paul. I agree that bootlegs of live performances and rare material are justified (maybe not legal, but justified).

Outright piracy of tracks that are EASY to find legally (ie. the entire 2nd disc of EscapeCD's set and much of the first) is wrong.

Granted SFW, YKIAI, ISTSA, ALT, MB, and LLSUI are relatively hard to find. I wouldn't chastise anyone for wanting an easier way to locate these tracks. Nearly all of the rest are EASY (with a few exceptions).

To those who think otherwise, I challenge you to spend a little time shopping on the Internet. I live in Utah, where there is definitely a dearth of TBS material, and I have found nearly everything in my collection through the Internet. What I'm basically saying is that if you've found your way to the LFW list, you can probably find most TBS items with a little searching.

To those that chastise the auctioneers of TBS items, let me remind you that these items are rare. And it's not like these prices are chosen arbitrarily. After several people bid on an item, the highest bid wins. How can you   complain about that?

There is no comparison between charging $30 for a CD-R copy of TBS b-sides and an auction price of $80 for a "Song For Whoever" CD single. A bootlegger could make a 100,000 copies of their b-side compilation if they found a market for them. There will NEVER be any more copies of the "Song For Whoever" CD single, or any of the back catalog singles for that matter. 

As I mentioned previously, I will, for anyone who wants, make a CD of the non-album tracks from the first album as well as the live tracks from the BBT and 36D CD singles for anyone who wants for $8 U.S. including shipping.

If you really must have these tracks, let's not encourage EscapeCD's type of piracy. I'll get you the tracks for next to nothing, if you really want them.

As for the other singles, I would be glad to help.
(editor's note: see Purchasing TBS)

JoelPY

Before I say something to get me flamed, let me caveat:

Basically, I'm bemused by a few things about the current bootlegging debate:

a) Nobody raised any moral objections before, when people we "know" were the bootleggers  Maybe all of these deep-seated feelings were present before (I'll give D.King points for consistency and eloquence, since he's  resisted my grovelling several  times in the past)  It's only now that this EscapeCD thing has come along, someone who is definitely a newcomer, and possibly a scam artist, that anyone on this list has voiced a single moral objection to anything (editor's note: Jen tells me this isn't true)

b) Doesn't anybody else feel like the band is working us over in the pocket pretty badly with the whole paired CD single thing  Not only are THEY blatantly fleecing us for dough, it's so damned inconvenient to have two puny three song discs rather than a couple fewer five song EPs. Shit, charge me the same obscene price, I'll pay it, but I'm sick of having all of these stupid discs  rolling around.  I'll buy every TBS item I can get my hands on, but I'd love the convenience of actually having some decent bulk on any one of the discs

c) How much money can a "for profit" bootlegger make selling a few copies of a CD-R from a  marginally obscure band to an email list of whose total population is only a couple of hundred souls anyway  I don't know much about the economics of CD-R (I understand prices have come down substantially on blank media) but don't you think bootlegging the Stones or Jimmy Buffet would be a better way to "make money"

d) Who is there on this list who would buy an expensive bootleg who wouldn't also buy every LP the band itself puts out. I hardly think that after 9.5 years of diligently buying every single import-priced TBS disc I could get my hands on that I'm really going to hurt them in the pocket book now. (and I realize I spend money more freely than some other members of LFW seem to, students, young parents, etc.)

e) Does anybody realize that bands make a pittance from record sales anyway (granted that is less true after the third album or so, particularly a group with a not-fickle following like TBS) virtually anything that happens to get people to live shows will pay for TBS, whether or not all of the bootleggers go to hell.

It sure never hurt the Grateful Dead, and all of their bootleggers certainly were not of the  tape and SASE crowd.  

dking

a) I don't think anyone here has a real objection to pure bootlegging of live material as well as extremely rare tracks. The moral objection only came up when it came to piracy of easy to find tracks. To my knowledge, this is the first time that this has come up on the list. Much of this message assumes that "bootlegging" and "piracy" are the same thing. As I've mentioned in previous posts, I don't believe that they are. The moral objections only came up when piracy was brought into the picture.

b) The band does not like doing these types of releases (paired CD singles). They are pressured into them by their record label. On the other hand, I feel that fans benefit by the double CD singles. If they were only going to release one, there is no way that they would bother to come up with 4 bonus tracks. By releasing two, we have the benefit of getting more TBS material.

I agree that having so many discs is inconvenient, but does it justify pirating the tracks?  I must admit that I've thrown several of the tracks on to a single CD for my convenience, but not until tracking down all of the singles.  And what if they are fleecing us (I mean the record company)? They have a right to. They own the material. If you owned something valuable, I'm sure that you would be very unhappy if others were selling it for their own profit. Record companies are in business to make money. Sure, they want you to buy two CD singles instead just one. But this type of business practice is not limited to the record industry. Just because something may be more expensive than we wish to pay does not justify theft.

d) I'm sure that there are many members of this list that own few or noneof the CD singles. If someone in this situation is able to buy all of the b-sides that ever existed instead of tracking down all of the singles, I think that this would be very appealing. Now I agree with your statement in regards to live bootlegs. It's unlikely that someone would buy a SWM or October until they owned all of the albums. But a pirate b-side CD is not the same thing. In order to save several hundred dollars in purchases, I'm sure that many people that do not own the material would love to get such a CD.   You seem to justify the theft by saying that the band is doing well anyway, and to justify the idea that since you've bought a lot of other items from the band that it's OK to steal the rest.

e) [Your] justification is that since the band doesn't get much profit from their records sales, it is OK to steal it. It is also saying that since the band makes so much from their live performances, it's alright to steal their profits from their records sales. Theft is theft and I'm sure you wouldn't feel the same if the roles were reversed.  

We're not talking about live performances. I agree that live bootlegs ultimately help a band. I'm sure you're not saying that pirated copies of regular release items of the Grateful Dead helps that band.

JoelPY

Mostly I'm surprised by the amount of heat and light this has generated from people who, unlike yourself, have never made a peep before. I've been trying to decide how much is actually outrage, and how much parochialism based on the fact that Escape isn't one of "us".

"Fans benefit by the double CD singles. If they were only going to release one, there is no way that they would bother to come up with 4 bonus tracks"

So, Paul ONLY makes up songs to fill up albums ? I don't buy it. This makes even less sense since the incremental cost of studio time and pressing is miniscule compared to all of the other expenses involved in distributing an album.  

"What if they are fleecing us (I mean the record company)? They have a right to ..."

To quote Jen out of context:  "Bullshit." Obviously they have the RIGHT to, that certainly doesn't justify it.

"Just because something may be more expensive than we wish to pay does not justify theft"

Well, obviously you are correct here, although our hair-splitting about booting versus piracy wouldn't make anyone at Sony Music or A&M happy
(cf. Go! discs)

Many LFWers have expressed substantial financial constraints before. That group was never going to purchase all, or even many of the expensive CD singles I was bemoaning, particularly not both of a twofer.

This [bootlegging] falls into the "no blood no foul" category.

"This justification is that since the band doesn't get much profit from their records sales, it is OK to steal it"

What I was trying to highlight was that those bootlegs that LFW seems to have sanctified, live concerts, in fact violate the one area where TBS unambiguously makes a lot of money.

Kipjaz (Mr. RTF)

When I first conceived RTF I thought of it as bootleg socialism -- The Anti-Capitalism Boot, rather, it turned out that way. To date I've made about $70-80 dollars with 110 copies of RTF being distributed.

If you calculate the hourly rate it's got to be something pathetic. I spent ridiculous amounts of time on that thing.

But while this sounds all noble, in practice I found it slightly frustrating. Because this sort of project is so time consuming, it becomes almost charity work. Though I'm sure LFW is deserving, I can think of more needy charities!

So I have come to see the other side of charging a modest fee for these ventures. The keyword is "modest". It was idiocy for me to do RTF totally non-profit. In hindsight, I'd figure in a small profit - maybe a dollar or two per disc.

So in theory EscapeCD making money on this CD doesn't bother me too much. Personally, I think $16 for a CD-R is high - I'd like to know what EscapeCD's profit margin is.

While I wish EscapeCD would distribute CDs for cost, and I support the idea of staying away from easy-to-find material in a theoretical sense, I like the idea of getting all of the B-sides in one place and probably will get these discs.

Ultimately, I think there are few repercussions from projects like RTF, SWM, and EscapeCD.  In the grand scheme of things, we're talking maybe hundreds of copies - surely not enough to noticeably affect anything, except the wallet of whoever buys the thing.

dking

(To EscapeCD, in response to someone requesting a pirated copy of
Briana Corrigan's disc)

Briana's album is still in print, but so is most of your [EscapeCD] Disc 3. You can go to nearly any mail order company and order all of the singles from "Blue Is The Colour" as well as Briana's singles.

Why does Briana's full length deserveany special treatment? Why don't you start burning copies of those and charging $16 for them. While you're at it, you could create a special 5 disc collection of the band's five albums.

You encourage your friend to buy an original copy of "When Your Arms Wrap Me Round" while encouraging those on this list to buy your pirated CD instead of "Rotterdam", "Don't Marry Her" (1&2), "Blackbird On The Wire" (1&2),"Liars' Bar" (1&2), and Briana's "Love Me Now" (1&2). Not to mention "DreamA Little Dream" and "Pretenders To The Throne" which may not be in print butare very easy to find.

The only tracks which could legitimately be called "hard to find" on disc three are the first two.  You obviously don't have any moral objections to what you're doing with the TBS and Briana singles that are in print. Why stop there? It's a slippery slope when you say that it's OK to pirate the band's most recent singles,but there is something wrong with pirating Briana's album. In otherwords,it's all wrong!

There is no difference between pirating BITC and pirating their current singles that are in print so don't kid yourself. I would be perfectly satisfied if disc 3 just didn't exist. There is no reason for it and there is certainly no reason for it on this list. I find it distasteful that someone who claims to be one of our own would be OK with encouraging people NOT to buy the recent TBS singles but rather buy their pirated version.

Well, enough of this tirade. I think my point has been made.

EscapeCD

I must say I didn't read your whole post (yawn).  I think I got to the 2nd paragraph.

I' m not saying people should not buy the new singles -- I would have bought them anyway, and I think most fans who buy Vol. 3 will also buy the singles when and if they can find them, This list is for diehards, we collect everything.

Vol. 3 is great because it's a compilation of the tracks, very convenient for listening to these great song's when they are all in one place -- it's really the icing on the cake for Volumes 1 & 2.

Look we are not going to agree on this issue.  I'm not going to stop burning CD's for people.you're not going to move next door to me and come over for pie.  Get over it.

Michigan Joe

I for one would like to WHOLE-HEARTEDLY and SINCERELY say how much I agree with David King's very carefully stated reply regarding selling discs -FOR PROFIT - of material commercially, readily available. Yes it's convenient to have b-sides collected in one place, butfor those without CD recorders, tapes work quite nicely. That's not really the point, though.

If this was just about a convenience for fans, the discs would be costing $5 or $6 instead of $16 (or ONLY $43 for all three!!!). That way if the band wasn't getting any of the profits, at least some other soul who had nothing to do with the creation ofthe material wouldn't be making a profit either.

L.Jack

I am the proud owner of all three cds. I didn't mind paying the price Escape Music asked, and I was one of the lucky ones to be upgraded for the original price. I have also since then bought 5 other CD singles when I had the opportunity. I would recommend [Beautiful B's] to anyone interested in them, especially someone like me who acquired most of what she owns through very over priced auctions out of desperation.  Every insult that gets thrown at Escape music is also thrown at every person from the list who bought the CDs.

I am tired of being called a bad fan or someone who has no place on this list because I chose to takeadvantage of this opportunity. Who's list is it anyway?

Kipjaz

Look, the ultimate power in this case lies with the consumer. If we (LFW) create a market for these types of pirated CDs - someone will show up selling them. It's an age old system. But if we don't buy them, or make it unprofitable to sell them, then we discourage this activity. Simple as that.

The joke is - we all want them, right? I mean, it's a nice sounding collection.  So not buying them is probably not realistic. But ... the beauty is that anyone with a copy of this collection and a CD-R unit can instantly put this Escape guy out of business. Bootlegging the bootleg is one of the great checkmates of this game.  So... anyone want to burn some copies of Vol. 1 & 2 for cheap or for trade? Why not undercut Mr. Escape and burn cheap copies without the cheesy graphics -- that would be a real service to LFW!

Northern Dry Pundit

I once again noticed that the list has reared it's unpleasant head and the same list members seem to be involved. List members discussing the ethics of the Escape CD possibly would like to consider the following -- one list member mentioned that maybe others should blow the Escape CD and sell it more cheaply. Well, maybe the person who posted the comment to the list should remember that at least Mr. Escape CD bothered to purchase each of the original version's of the tracks, with money obviously going to the band in the first place.

The person wanting to re-boot the EscapeCD simply wants the tracks, with not a penny going to the band...interesting.... now who is the villain: Escape CD (who at least put some money into the pockets of the band, even if very little), or the listmember who not only is prepared to rip the band off 100% but also rip off Mr. Escape who spent time, money and his initiative compiling the CD.

L.Clarke

Yes, yes, its true . . . Maeve and I bow before LFW, we have no morals or ethics, we'd rather rip off the villain by booting the boot. I'll bet you've done nothing dishonest in your life. (I say as I take the halo from above your head and polish it). You've never taped a film off of television?

Yes, its absolutely true that I just want the tracks. Hell, I'm not even particular if it's on CD. I'd send a few blank tapes to someone on the list with these CD's and ask them to tape them for me. (I'm sure everyone has done that at least once in their lives). I just want to hear the music, and the songs for the sake of hearing them. You must have missed the bit where I said that I would and do (albeit somewhat slower than those of you with deep pockets) purchase the original CD as I can afford/find them. I'll even send one dollar for each of these tapes to the band.

If you're going to take that holier than thou stance then you should have upped the price for the Brighton CD and sent something to the band for creating a market for it. Better still, go back to working for the band and then you can do this legally -- rereleasing old, hard-to-find and live material.

Northern Dry Pundit

Well, actually, there you go typing before thinking, as Laura and Alex will tell you Sean and Dave both know about the Brighton CD, think it was a cool thing to do, and we actually left Sean a copy.

PTKOLB

A few weeks ago I had considerable comment on this topic. My feelings have not changed. In response to Laura who stated that any slight to EscapeCD is also directed at those who purchased the discs, I disagree. I do not blame you for yielding to a tempting offer, do not intend to disparage you or your character, do not hope you find yourself in federal court, nor do I look at you with contempt. I do hope you whistle these tunes on your way to work and tell your friends and acquaintances what a great band they are. You got the music you wanted and love and paid a pirate for it.

EscapeCD was originally offering a "favor" to the LFW listers by compiling some rare, deleted, or largely difficult to find singles for a relatively high price. The 3rd CD is the one that I took issue with as some of its tracks are simply the LATEST releases and just an attempt to profit from the band.   EscapeCD's arrogance and disrespect for the law and the band is astounding. I sarcastically offered to burn boots of BITC to save listers the trouble of having to purchase it or the singles off of it (the convenience aspect).  Maybe EscapeCD could contract with the band to make these convenient, one-stop discs available as part of the regular catalog! But then a real name would have to be used and there would be all those messy legalities involved.

Granted, EscapeCD did obtain all of the singles and money did make its way to the band (unless they were radio or retail promos) but we should not be exalting EscapeCD. I stated that someone should pirate the pirate and if "it was really the music that mattered" no one should take issue with it.

The pirate's pirate would be taking no more money away from the band than EscapeCD is and is not reaping a profit from his exploitation of the band's material. EscapeCD's "favor" or "service" was strictly an attempt at profiteering. I have spent a considerable amount on the band's material, merchandise, and also on a DAT and a burner, and could easily do a similar venture to recoup some of my costs. I would argue that these are sunk costs as they would have been incurred by me because I wanted the items for my own use and would have purchased them regardless, just as EscapeCD did and should. To reward EscapeCD for originally buying (possibly) the material is ridiculous. The price per disc- come off it, six bucks a disc is reasonable, sixteen is a ripoff! So, buy them if you want (rebooting or transferring them to tape would be great!) as each of can make up our own minds.

What I would really like to hear is EscapeCD declare his/her real intention: This would be just trying to make a buck by ripping off the listers and the band and avoid prosecution.I am curious if EscapeCD offers a similar "service" to other lists or artists.

dking

I was curious about this, too, so I did some searching out in Usenet to see if I could find the name EscapeCD. He's also selling similar items by Prince and Terrence Trent D'Arby. But (in EscapeCD's defense) at least those items didn't appear to pirate tracks that are currently in print.  Seems that their intention is pretty clear,

R.Moon

For starters, I respect both sides of the Escape CD issue. But I would like to throw my 2 cents in:

Look, people, these are songs. Not plutonium. Nothing earth shattering.  Nothing magical is gonna happen if someone buys the bootlegs. Having a CDR of these tracks does not give anyone super human powers that will enable them to overthrow a government or anything.  I really don't see the difference if someone offers a cassette tape to me or a CDR, other than sound quality. So now, if you have a great copy ... you can bootleg them yourself. Guess what, there are only so many Beautiful South fans around. I think I'm the only fan of BS in a 200 mile radius as it is. None of my friends are interested in them anyways (their loss)...who am I gonna copy the songs for ... my 67 year old mother who lives to go to Las Vegas every August?

I think what upsets people is the fact that some of us could have owned a BMW if not for spending hard earned cash for the singles over the past10 years.  I have every single except "Song For Whoever" and I still bought the "Beautiful B's". "You And Your Big Ideas" has been CDR-ed for me months ago. I wanted the collection because it is convenient for me. My originals are now safely tucked away and I can have 70+ minutes of continues Bside pleasure.

L.Gaylord

I feel like TBS (or their label) rips us off with overpriced CDs and multiple CD singles each containing one or two non-album tracks. The question I ask isn't "Is some of this money going back to the band?" but rather "What are the motivations of the person who burned these tracks onto CD?"

If I'm convinced that the person who burned the tracks to CD is a real TBS fan who wants to "share the wealth" by distributing non-album tracks among other TBS fans, I have no problem giving them a reasonable amount of money to cover costs and some small compensation for their time. But when someone like "EscapeCD" asks $16 (plus shipping) per disk, it's obvious that he's in it to make a buck. Under those circumstances, I see absolutely nothing wrong with buying the CDs and duping them for other TBSfans at $1 or $2 per disc.  After all, what is "EscapeCD" going to do? Sue me? Buahahahaha!

R.Moon

I'm not being cavalier, I just think if the BS were really interested, they would put out a free standing B side collection.  I'll tell you one thing, if I bonked Briana one night and in a fit of carnal rapture she gave me a DAT of studio outakes, you can bet everyone's buttons you'd all what me to make copies.

RELAX FOLKS, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.  I love my originals, love the artwork, love how they look, smell (haven'ttasted any yet). To me, a CDR is a home made thing. I paid Escape for his services, not the songs. I already had 99.9% ofthem.  For those who bought it for the songs. They got lucky. I'd buy a legit B-side collection they day it went up for sale!

P.Kelly

Here is my opinion of what is ripping off TBS and what isn't:

1) Concert CDS - NO; these concerts were never taped for distribution and the band would never profit from them.

2) Rare b-sides - NO; if the songs are only found on out-of-production CD singles, then TBS stands nothing to lose. The only people losing money would be the shop owners who sell used CDs.

3) Current Singles and any of the songs on the albums still being produced - YES; as long as the record company is still burning the material, it is taking money out of TBS's hands and into the hands of the bootlegger. 

J.Carr

If i had an album that sold the same quantity that COUTC has, i don't think I'd be too damn worried about my livelihood and the effects that a few shiny discs offered to a small mailing list might have upon it... on the other hand I do feel sorry for Terrence Trent D'arby and the no doubt fine members of his list whom are being prayed upon ... for the love of god, the horse is dead.

Isn't there a mailing list devoted to 'bootlegs'? I just heard a TBS thread is running rampant on it (somewhere)